tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22877324.post114893524963528840..comments2023-05-13T04:50:48.956-05:00Comments on Keep Changing- A Gay Mormon Journey: Limitations of gay love-L-http://www.blogger.com/profile/02854867259876731599noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22877324.post-1149038217538763082006-05-30T20:16:00.000-05:002006-05-30T20:16:00.000-05:00Since we're down on the homos--male and female--an...Since we're down on the homos--male and female--and their ability to commit, how about the straights? One out of two of their marriages end in divorce and many that don't end in divorce experience infidelity.<BR/><BR/>Here's my hypothesis--it's that sticky human factor.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05940646193920094814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22877324.post-1149035938601267792006-05-30T19:38:00.000-05:002006-05-30T19:38:00.000-05:00Wow. I was going to comment on lesbian relationsh...Wow. I was going to comment on lesbian relationships, but the point seems mute by now! ;) Anyway, just wanted to add that lesbians surely don't have a corner on monogomy *or* longevity in relationships. Far from it. Surely they don't seem to go through partners as the statistics pointed out for men, but the relationships statistically don't last. And no, I have no idea where that statistic can be recovered from ... those who I know, however, aren't in lasting or monogomous relationships. (And I do know more than 2 - LOL).<BR/><BR/>KimBook Dragonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02818222387302221638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22877324.post-1149035818953398222006-05-30T19:36:00.000-05:002006-05-30T19:36:00.000-05:00Um, I said I suspect Nicolosi is a self-hating hom...Um, I said I <I>suspect</I> Nicolosi is a self-hating homosexual.<BR/><BR/>Regarding studies, my hypothesis is that it is exceptionally difficult -- perhaps fatally so from a statistical validity perspective -- to study the gay population, because there are too many variables that have to be taken into account, and too much of the gay population is "invisible" and underrepresented in study samples.David Walterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16961185167489984607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22877324.post-1149035152633112752006-05-30T19:25:00.000-05:002006-05-30T19:25:00.000-05:00DW, I'm going to defer retyping any portion of Nic...DW, I'm going to defer retyping any portion of Nicolosi's book other than the ones I find interesting and post on. You can get it at your local library. If you want the specific study he references, find McWhirter and Mattison's <I>The Male Couple</I>.<BR/><BR/>Hurc, I think nother's ire wasn't directed at you. I think your point is an excellent one--quite appropriate. I believe you exemplify a man who is more likely than average to find what you are looking for and keep it. Whether gay, mixed, or straight, I hope couples will be determined to <A HREF="http://ardentmormon.blogspot.com/2006/04/aspiring-to-honors.html" REL="nofollow">stick together</A>.-L-https://www.blogger.com/profile/02854867259876731599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22877324.post-1149034687442691352006-05-30T19:18:00.000-05:002006-05-30T19:18:00.000-05:00Dave, thanks for the alternative perspective, but ...Dave, thanks for the alternative perspective, but where's that study? I want to see a <I>study</I> backing the idea that homosexual relationships can be monogomous for long periods of time. Show us how easy studies are to do.Jason Lockharthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06840225763041029923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22877324.post-1149034282609608282006-05-30T19:11:00.000-05:002006-05-30T19:11:00.000-05:00another other,I didn't call Nicolosi a self-hating...another other,<BR/><BR/>I didn't call Nicolosi a self-hating homosexual--Dave did.<BR/><BR/>My point is this--you don't want to be defined by statistics on mixed orientation marriages, I don't want to be defined by statistics on male homosexual fidelity. Because if there is anything you and I can agree on it's that the stats about our respective life situations don't remove from us the power snd responsibility of choice.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05940646193920094814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22877324.post-1149031497569446572006-05-30T18:24:00.000-05:002006-05-30T18:24:00.000-05:00L,Post a chunk of the methodology here and I'll ha...L,<BR/><BR/>Post a chunk of the methodology here and I'll have it.David Walterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16961185167489984607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22877324.post-1149030264137273122006-05-30T18:04:00.000-05:002006-05-30T18:04:00.000-05:00I could rip the studies' methodology to shreds, wi...<I>I could rip the studies' methodology to shreds, with ease. But it's not worth my time to do so. </I><BR/><BR/>Are you familiar with these studies? How do you <I>a priori</I> know that the results aren't valid? So, anything that disagrees with your view you disregard as unworthy of your time... as being "easy" to disprove. Yet you spend plenty of time blogging, and ostensibly to help poor saps like me figure things out. And if it's so easy... Dave, refusing to consider any evidence that challenges your most basic beliefs is ironic from one prone to calling others "brainwashed".<BR/><BR/>And the link you provided leads only to the most political of rebuttals. It includes such fallacies as appeal to authority, appeal to character, appeal to emotions, appeal to ignorance... and that's only the first couple screens. Down lower it gets around to rebutting some of Nicolosi's claims--in a similar fashion to myself.<BR/><BR/>See, look what fun can come of actually assessing the arguments for yourself? As someone who has actually <I>read</I> the Nicolosi book, is intimately involved in the politics of medicine, and has formal training in science, I can attest that there are some valuable things in Nicolosi's work regardless of who does or doesn't want to endorse it.<BR/><BR/>And maybe while you're looking up references you could dig up that one about "anal sex while driving" being a leading cause of death among young men. I'm still waiting for that one. :)-L-https://www.blogger.com/profile/02854867259876731599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22877324.post-1149028670027293802006-05-30T17:37:00.000-05:002006-05-30T17:37:00.000-05:00Dave, you could do those studies, but careful read...<I>Dave, you could do those studies, but careful readers would expose your methodological flaws.</I><BR/><BR/>You missed the sarcasm in my remarks. <BR/><BR/><I>I'm surprised you ignore that the data he quotes here came from gay researchers--a homosexual psychiatrist and psychologist pair. Not from Nicolosi.</I><BR/><BR/>I don't care who did the research. The results simply aren't valid. I could rip the studies' methodology to shreds, with ease. But it's not worth my time to do so. If more than a relative handful of people gave Nicolosi's hogwash any credence, it might be worth my bother.<BR/><BR/>By the way, just for kicks, here is <A HREF="http://www.nd.edu/~amanier/leftjab.html" REL="nofollow">another viewpoint</A>.<BR/><BR/>Also by the way, I saw in the newspaper just today the results of a poll that show 15 to 30 percent of married people (and remember, gay couples can't get married, except in Massachusetts) would rather give up their marriages -- than be fat. Sure makes <I>me</I> want to pursue reparative therapy.David Walterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16961185167489984607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22877324.post-1149026119087701912006-05-30T16:55:00.000-05:002006-05-30T16:55:00.000-05:00Um, I think it's been well-established that the st...Um, I think it's been well-established that the stats on that are pretty bleak. But, the point is, I'm not going to say that the statisticians that procured that information are self-hating heterosexuals that loathe themselves so much they can't find anything else with which to occupy their minds. Nor will I try to claim that "studies" are easy to do. If they were, I could certainly find one that makes me feel more comfortable in light of my circumstances. The issue is not to discount stats that don't favor our views as Dave has shown a great propensity for doing. It's to discover WHY the stats are what they are, and then make decisions in an informed way.Jason Lockharthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06840225763041029923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22877324.post-1149024619735523532006-05-30T16:30:00.000-05:002006-05-30T16:30:00.000-05:00If studies are so easy to do, show me one that sho...<I>If studies are so easy to do, show me one that shows that gay relationships with two faithful members that lasts more than five or ten years is statistically common or valid or proven at all. Because I sure have never seen one... </I><BR/><BR/>Haven't seen one with any good news about mixed orientation marriages either. Seems gay men are doomed by statistics no matter what we choose.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05940646193920094814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22877324.post-1149024217859695212006-05-30T16:23:00.000-05:002006-05-30T16:23:00.000-05:00All of Nicolosi's assertions are so multiply flawe...<I>All of Nicolosi's assertions are so multiply flawed that I won't bother to address any of them. I suspect Nicolosi is a deeply self-hating homosexual who keeps himself sane by preoccupying his mind with finding ways to justify his self-hatred.</I><BR/><BR/>What? Dave hears statistically valid data against his views and he thinks that the person talking is a self-hating homosexual, and therefore conveniently won't actually combat the ideas shared? What a surprise! If studies are so easy to do, show me one that shows that gay relationships with two faithful members that lasts more than five or ten years is statistically common or valid or proven at all. Because I sure have never seen one...Jason Lockharthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06840225763041029923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22877324.post-1149023989325249632006-05-30T16:19:00.000-05:002006-05-30T16:19:00.000-05:00Dave, you could do those studies, but careful read...Dave, you could do those studies, but careful readers would expose your methodological flaws. Just disagreeing with research is not a good reason to discount it. If you would bother to carefully examine Nicolosi's theory and respond to it, you might actually contribute to the debate rather than attacking someone's character with no evident rationale except a fallacious appeal to the politicization of science.<BR/><BR/>I'm surprised you ignore that the data he quotes here came from gay researchers--a homosexual psychiatrist and psychologist pair. Not from Nicolosi.-L-https://www.blogger.com/profile/02854867259876731599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22877324.post-1149023420768429262006-05-30T16:10:00.000-05:002006-05-30T16:10:00.000-05:00All of Nicolosi's assertions are so multiply flawe...All of Nicolosi's assertions are so multiply flawed that I won't bother to address any of them. I suspect Nicolosi is a deeply self-hating homosexual who keeps himself sane by preoccupying his mind with finding ways to justify his self-hatred.<BR/><BR/>I could easily do a "study" showing that married Christian heterosexuals are by and large unsatisfied in their marriages but remain in them because God blessed the union, or for the kids, or for some other reason.<BR/><BR/>I could do a "study" showing that gay men are more nurturing than straight men, and therefore more likely to be devoted to their spouses than are heterosexual men.<BR/><BR/>I could do a "study" showing that dating is counted as a relationship for gay men, but not for heterosexuals.<BR/><BR/>I could do a "study" of gay male couples and come up with conclusive data showing that the average gay male relationship lasts 14 years and counting (meaning that 100% of the relationships are still intact).<BR/><BR/>I could go on and on.David Walterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16961185167489984607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22877324.post-1149021680301075612006-05-30T15:41:00.000-05:002006-05-30T15:41:00.000-05:00What this study shows is that the same can not be ...<I>What this study shows is that the same can not be claimed for homosexual men. </I><BR/><BR/>But I have anecdotal evidence that they can. Off the top of my head, I know at least three gay male couples that are faithful in their commitment to each other, and I could probably think of a few more if I thought about it longer.<BR/><BR/>All I'm saying is this: men tend to be less faithful than women regardless of sexual orientation. And, really, that makes sense from an evolutionary, perpetuate the species perspective.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05940646193920094814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22877324.post-1149021156373694262006-05-30T15:32:00.001-05:002006-05-30T15:32:00.001-05:00As for the difference between gay men and lesbians...As for the difference between gay men and lesbians, I posit that the root causes and reasons for their homosexual attractions are simply different than those of men. I intuit (though, admittedly, I have no data or research at all whatsoever to back this and I could very easily be off) that their attractions have something to do with a need for loyalty and commitment, and an illusion that men are incapable of providing that. That's probably WAY oversimplified though. The point is, I think the fundament of the attractions for the sexes, just as in the heterosexual world, are different in the homosexual world, and THAT explains lesbians' ability to forge monogomous relationships while gay men simply seem incapable statistically of doing so.Jason Lockharthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06840225763041029923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22877324.post-1149021120786510542006-05-30T15:32:00.000-05:002006-05-30T15:32:00.000-05:00So, are the literally thousands, perhaps millions,...So, are the literally thousands, perhaps millions, of men that are completely monogomous in their heterosexual relationships just... not men, then? I realize that there are a lot of men who <I>aren't</I> loyal to their wives, but that doesn't change the fact that there are many, many, many who <I>are</I>. What this study shows is that the same can not be claimed for homosexual men.Jason Lockharthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06840225763041029923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22877324.post-1149018967251337702006-05-30T14:56:00.000-05:002006-05-30T14:56:00.000-05:00But my point is that perhaps we ought to get all m...But my point is that perhaps we ought to get all men, regardless of orientation, into reparative therapy. Because men are pigs.<BR/><BR/>Nicolosi seems to see all of these problems with fidelity as a result of homosexuality when perhaps they are more closely associated to gender.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05940646193920094814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22877324.post-1149016418804477922006-05-30T14:13:00.000-05:002006-05-30T14:13:00.000-05:00Well, since he's talking about male homosexuality,...Well, since he's talking about <I>male</I> homosexuality, gay couples have double the risk of infidelity resulting from maleness. Seems to still be relevant, wherever you want to attribute it.-L-https://www.blogger.com/profile/02854867259876731599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22877324.post-1149015688114809312006-05-30T14:01:00.000-05:002006-05-30T14:01:00.000-05:00L:I think gay male couple do tend to have shorter-...L:<BR/><BR/>I think gay male couple do tend to have shorter-lasting relationships because, you know, men. I have heard, but haven't substantiated, that lesbians tend to have much longer-lasting relationships--more lasting even than heterosexual couples. Because, you know, women.<BR/><BR/>I know that Nicolosi is focused on male homosexuality, but the (admittedly alleged) higher rates of fidelity among lesbians would lead me to conclude that perhaps the higher rates of infidelity among gay men are the result not of homosexuality, but of maleness.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05940646193920094814noreply@blogger.com